Post by Rojola on Feb 27, 2004 12:47:27 GMT 2
Maps or caps ? I think only few nowadays pays any attention to that issue as leagues and most clans have adapted the win-by-maps method over the traditional win-by-caps. We have always presented results on our website in win-by-caps method. I think it's because of Clanbase, that in it's active days, used that method to decide the winner from the match.
We see TFC match as one solid event and not as first round and second round. Sure there is rounds but they make the whole match and the match should be won by the team that performed better i.e got more caps. As the maps are same to each clan and nowadays matches are played on single, quite equal server, there is no reason to divide the match into two seperate sections where the first round decides and reduces the possibilities for the outcome.
Here comes the whiners "But in Well you don't cap so much and Chimkey is such a capfest and..." So what ? It's same for both teams and as both rounds are played on same server usually, neither team has any real advantage. The match should measure the performance of a team. Good clan performs well in all maps, not just in one. Lets say that Clan A wins the first round. With win-by-maps Clan B has no way to win the match as the best they can do is get draw by winning the 2nd round. No matter how much they would own on the 2nd round, they will only get draw. Heh, after 1st round, Clan A can just drop it and still they get draw if it's all they need. We and several other clans have take advantage from this flaw in win-by-maps method.
Let's look at sports. Does ManU get at least draw against AC Milan after they won 1st round ? Of course not. With decent effort from AC Milan on 2nd round, they might win. Now you say "but the playground in soccer is the same for the 2nd round". Well, so it is in TFC if you look the overall match, not just rounds. Sure the map might change for the 2nd round but both clans have the same opportunities to cap in EACH round so winning by caps is far more logical. Especially when both rounds are played on equal server
Overall performance. That is the keyword in this column. Not performance in certain maps but overall performace for the whole match. Overall performance should be the one that decides the winner from match and that overall performance is caps. Heh, personally I would like to see system that takes frags also into account but I think it's too high hope
Leagues have also seen this issue as nowadays they have started to take eye on caps also. Either you get some bonus points from caps like in LTFL or then the match is resolved purely on performance as in WPTFCL. Then there is VTFL which has somekind of mixed system.
Both systems have flaws of course but win-by-caps has few of them than win-by-maps. We have and continue to present results in win-by-caps. Some clans like to present results in win-by-maps as it decreases amount of losses and increases amount of draws. Then they can show that they don't lose that much. Of course this works both ways to wins also. Then there are clans who present the results in the way that suits for the situation better. They use the method that looks better on the site. Kinda lollish.
If you still think it's all about maps, you can go and figure out why leagues have taken eye on caps also. Keep the match exciting for the 2nd round also, choose to play with caps
-Rojola
Jeroi wanted to give his two cents on the subject and I promised to publish his writings here too. So here is 2nd opinion by Jeroi, text is unedited.
[glow=red,2,300]
WARNING ! STUFF BENEATH THIS LINE IS FROM JEROI, HE IS NOT OUR MEMBER NOR HE EVER WILL. HE IS NOT OUR SIDEKICK EITHER !!!
[/glow]
We had a long and very pointles talk about this matter with Rojola and so I asked, if I could write colum of my opinion to take a look about the matter from another view.
First of all I think nowdays leagues have made scoring systems more logically altaught some leagues have win by performance like Rojola said.
Ok sure it is pain in the ass for offy if win outcome is made by maps and more happy defence players if it's made by maps. But here I will demonstrate real life exsamples which can be looked from point of view for tfc too.
1. If we take a look small war. Like tfc there is nation1 and nation2. So there is two locations where the war will be.. So first war will be held at locationA which wins nation1 and all nation2 has been destroyed there. Second war at location2 did won nation1. Logically The both nations try to talk peace now. So the war will be tie. If not there will be location3 which decides overall. Into TFC: Friendly war: 2fort & Openfire. Team A wins 2fort and team B wins openfire. logically this match will be tie. If they want to see still whos better they should fight that third map like shutdow2.
2. Lets look soccer like Rojola said. There is ManU and Milan. First leg will be played at milans arena which ManU wins. Second location is ManU´s stadium which Milan wins. Lets look at overall goals of this game Manu 3 - 2 Milan. That dosent matter ´cos Milan did won the another match so only thing which can settle this is third match in different location again. If it´s not held both clans are equal. It is no matter if one match have 2*30min 'cos it is held at same stadium. Altaught some leagues have rules how win is ruled like UEFA. Same Like TFC. Now we are talking about friendlys which are the base for the league.
3. It is same thing at icehockey too. Onlything is that ice hockey leagues judge the golden goal at extra time. Which in this could mean in tfc that second map will be played again and who caps first win whole match.
Ok there is few examples why I think more logically way to judge tfc matches are win by maps. Ofcourse players are annoyed because all the hard work for frags or caps... But it is same in soccer or a real war. I have same opinion againts those clans which uses different styles to judge so that it will look great on their website. Still tho, I feel it is more fair to give both clan one point in league if both wins map. Afterall they have won one map! Yes I think overall performance is good for the clan as always there will be more better players in it and leader can take a look how everybody is going and improving. But this is all the art of war! If your tacs are good in one map and praccy went good you could win that map even tho the another clan is better. I think overall performance for points is not good.
I can see logical and very sportmanship way to judge scores with maps. There is no flaws but only those players which are good wants to get high score.I think better way is to think for the clan not by your own score or deads. Or caps. Your Clan wins a map if it gets more caps. That is it. You have do the same in the another to win both maps. After all how can you judge so that in first map clan A got 20 caps and B got 5, second is 2-5 and clan A wins both maps because of that first map performance which has nothing to do with map b? This isn´t sportmanship I say! And only those who "own" wants to use win by caps and performance points. I can say that in my past clan I judged by maps and got very nice and friendly messages form clans which we did won by caps but not with maps so I judged them as tie. Then again another clans were not happy when they did win us by caps but not by maps. But same rule for everyone as I well enough did show above.
My english Isn´t the greatest but thanks Rojola.
- Jeroi
We see TFC match as one solid event and not as first round and second round. Sure there is rounds but they make the whole match and the match should be won by the team that performed better i.e got more caps. As the maps are same to each clan and nowadays matches are played on single, quite equal server, there is no reason to divide the match into two seperate sections where the first round decides and reduces the possibilities for the outcome.
Here comes the whiners "But in Well you don't cap so much and Chimkey is such a capfest and..." So what ? It's same for both teams and as both rounds are played on same server usually, neither team has any real advantage. The match should measure the performance of a team. Good clan performs well in all maps, not just in one. Lets say that Clan A wins the first round. With win-by-maps Clan B has no way to win the match as the best they can do is get draw by winning the 2nd round. No matter how much they would own on the 2nd round, they will only get draw. Heh, after 1st round, Clan A can just drop it and still they get draw if it's all they need. We and several other clans have take advantage from this flaw in win-by-maps method.
Let's look at sports. Does ManU get at least draw against AC Milan after they won 1st round ? Of course not. With decent effort from AC Milan on 2nd round, they might win. Now you say "but the playground in soccer is the same for the 2nd round". Well, so it is in TFC if you look the overall match, not just rounds. Sure the map might change for the 2nd round but both clans have the same opportunities to cap in EACH round so winning by caps is far more logical. Especially when both rounds are played on equal server
Overall performance. That is the keyword in this column. Not performance in certain maps but overall performace for the whole match. Overall performance should be the one that decides the winner from match and that overall performance is caps. Heh, personally I would like to see system that takes frags also into account but I think it's too high hope
Leagues have also seen this issue as nowadays they have started to take eye on caps also. Either you get some bonus points from caps like in LTFL or then the match is resolved purely on performance as in WPTFCL. Then there is VTFL which has somekind of mixed system.
Both systems have flaws of course but win-by-caps has few of them than win-by-maps. We have and continue to present results in win-by-caps. Some clans like to present results in win-by-maps as it decreases amount of losses and increases amount of draws. Then they can show that they don't lose that much. Of course this works both ways to wins also. Then there are clans who present the results in the way that suits for the situation better. They use the method that looks better on the site. Kinda lollish.
If you still think it's all about maps, you can go and figure out why leagues have taken eye on caps also. Keep the match exciting for the 2nd round also, choose to play with caps
-Rojola
Jeroi wanted to give his two cents on the subject and I promised to publish his writings here too. So here is 2nd opinion by Jeroi, text is unedited.
[glow=red,2,300]
WARNING ! STUFF BENEATH THIS LINE IS FROM JEROI, HE IS NOT OUR MEMBER NOR HE EVER WILL. HE IS NOT OUR SIDEKICK EITHER !!!
[/glow]
We had a long and very pointles talk about this matter with Rojola and so I asked, if I could write colum of my opinion to take a look about the matter from another view.
First of all I think nowdays leagues have made scoring systems more logically altaught some leagues have win by performance like Rojola said.
Ok sure it is pain in the ass for offy if win outcome is made by maps and more happy defence players if it's made by maps. But here I will demonstrate real life exsamples which can be looked from point of view for tfc too.
1. If we take a look small war. Like tfc there is nation1 and nation2. So there is two locations where the war will be.. So first war will be held at locationA which wins nation1 and all nation2 has been destroyed there. Second war at location2 did won nation1. Logically The both nations try to talk peace now. So the war will be tie. If not there will be location3 which decides overall. Into TFC: Friendly war: 2fort & Openfire. Team A wins 2fort and team B wins openfire. logically this match will be tie. If they want to see still whos better they should fight that third map like shutdow2.
2. Lets look soccer like Rojola said. There is ManU and Milan. First leg will be played at milans arena which ManU wins. Second location is ManU´s stadium which Milan wins. Lets look at overall goals of this game Manu 3 - 2 Milan. That dosent matter ´cos Milan did won the another match so only thing which can settle this is third match in different location again. If it´s not held both clans are equal. It is no matter if one match have 2*30min 'cos it is held at same stadium. Altaught some leagues have rules how win is ruled like UEFA. Same Like TFC. Now we are talking about friendlys which are the base for the league.
3. It is same thing at icehockey too. Onlything is that ice hockey leagues judge the golden goal at extra time. Which in this could mean in tfc that second map will be played again and who caps first win whole match.
Ok there is few examples why I think more logically way to judge tfc matches are win by maps. Ofcourse players are annoyed because all the hard work for frags or caps... But it is same in soccer or a real war. I have same opinion againts those clans which uses different styles to judge so that it will look great on their website. Still tho, I feel it is more fair to give both clan one point in league if both wins map. Afterall they have won one map! Yes I think overall performance is good for the clan as always there will be more better players in it and leader can take a look how everybody is going and improving. But this is all the art of war! If your tacs are good in one map and praccy went good you could win that map even tho the another clan is better. I think overall performance for points is not good.
I can see logical and very sportmanship way to judge scores with maps. There is no flaws but only those players which are good wants to get high score.I think better way is to think for the clan not by your own score or deads. Or caps. Your Clan wins a map if it gets more caps. That is it. You have do the same in the another to win both maps. After all how can you judge so that in first map clan A got 20 caps and B got 5, second is 2-5 and clan A wins both maps because of that first map performance which has nothing to do with map b? This isn´t sportmanship I say! And only those who "own" wants to use win by caps and performance points. I can say that in my past clan I judged by maps and got very nice and friendly messages form clans which we did won by caps but not with maps so I judged them as tie. Then again another clans were not happy when they did win us by caps but not by maps. But same rule for everyone as I well enough did show above.
My english Isn´t the greatest but thanks Rojola.
- Jeroi
